Up From Nationalism

In preparation for Thanksgiving, Jonah invites the latest gold jacket-wearer Will Saletan back on The ...

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In preparation for Thanksgiving, Jonah invites the latest gold jacket-wearer Will Saletan back on The Remnant to consider what, if anything, is so uniquely great about America. Their conversation quickly develops into a discussion of nationalism, universal principles, and whether America is simply an idea, with a generous amount of rank punditry mixed in for good measure. Is the COVID-19 pandemic over? What does the Virginia result mean for both parties? And can Biden’s presidency recover after a disastrous few months?

Show Notes:

– Will’s page at Slate

– Will’s previous Remnant appearance

– Paxlovid Americana

– Will on critical race theory and the Virginia result

– Jonah: “What Inflation and CRT Have in Common”

– Rich Lowry: “Don’t Rewrite Mark Twain”

– Paul Gosar gets censured

– Jonah: “Mugged By Fallacy”

– Seymour Martin Lipset on American exceptionalism

– Jonah’s fondness for Thanksgiving

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  1. Avatar photo
    Ted Gale

    Great discussion, for all of the reasons given by those who have posted already.

    One thing to add on the nationalism/patriotism discussion (and it is not clear to me where, exactly, Jonah makes the distinction):

    I think it is entirely appropriate to have a special affection for one’s country because it is one’s country, i.e., it is “home,” in a way that does not denigrate other countries, or serve as a basis for arguing that one’s country should dominate other countries. In this, I think I am cribbing C.S. Lewis, who (if I recall correctly) wrote something to the effect that it was entirely correct for the English to have a particular appreciation for English habits, customs, and institutions, and for (for example) for the French to have an affection for (and preference for) their own particular habits, customs, and institutions. I don’t see this as a “blood annd soil” kind of patriotism, but more like an appreciation of certain particularities of culture. And, in the United States at least, it can be (and ought to be) accompanied by

    (1) a similar affection for particular locations or institutions within the country (e.g., one’s home town or state, a school one once attended, etc.); and

    (2) an understanding of (and appreciation for) the fact that, while the United States has roots in the settlement of various sorts of folks from England along the Atlantic seaboard, there are many, many other things that make up what and who we are that came here under a bewildering variety of times and circumstances. I can honestly say that pizza and bagels are as American as corn bread and bacon; that jazz is as American (perhaps even more so) as John Philip Sousa, and that (as Jonah has often pointed out) that New York, Memphis, New Orleans and Salt Lake City are each distinctly American cities (as different as they are).

    I could go on. And on. Because America is nothing if not plural. And it was that way from the beginning (Jamestown was a very different proposition from Plymouth).

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    Michael Berkowitz

    Thank you for heading off the complaints about Leviticus. I can't speak for anyone else, but *I* was going to comment.

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  3. Sharon R

    Democratic advisors and columnists keep claiming (as Will argues in this podcast) that CRT isn’t really in schools, it’s just a gotcha from some bad training “on this website, on that website”… but if you have kids in schools as I do then thanks to distance learning you know just how much CRT is in the school, in the classroom, in the writing assignments, in the “write a letter to the teacher telling about yourself including your race, religion, gender identity, sexuality, disability, family history, and privilege” assignment. If you found your autistic high schooler crying on zoom (more than once!) during a you-are-guilty-of-racism-because-you-are-white lesson, you know CRT is in the classroom right along with Kendi and DiAngelo and friends. It’s not imaginary! Stop telling us we didn’t see and hear what we saw and heard!

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  4. Matt

    Contrary to everyone else Will is not my favorite. That being said an amazing podcast that I thought really set me up for better thanksgiving discussions with my liberal relatives! Thanks Jonah!

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  5. Avatar photo
    Dina

    For Jonah, a word about kippah versus yarmulke:

    Kippah is Hebrew (from the Hebrew word kippah which means dome).

    Yarmulke is Yiddish. Originally from a Polish word for skullcap. I grew up hearing the popular explanation that it comes from the Aramaic yarei malkah, which means God fearing.

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  6. Avatar photo
    Dina

    Thanks for having Will Saletan on. He and A.B. Stoddard are my favorite Remnant guests. Can you also have on David Frum? And despite your recent spat, Mona Charen?

    Will is wrong that only the N95 masks are effective. They are the most effective, but even cloth masks help to reduce (though not eliminate) transmission. And reduction is vastly better than nothing.

    I disagree that we should settle for Covid being endemic, which is when we decide that we are comfortable with the level of death. We should not be comfortable with over a thousand deaths a day, and with cases rising, we will see an increase in that in a couple of weeks.

    One of the most horrifying things to me since Covid is the indifference I’ve seen toward mass death.

    Finally, while it’s silly for people to wear a mask where it’s not needed (like while jogging alone in the forest), “mask-aphilia” is harmless. But refusal to wear masks where they are needed (crowded indoor spaces), especially by the unvaccinated, means “mask-aphobia” can outright cause people to die. So please don’t equate the two.

    One is a silly but harmless behavior, while the other is a reckless, selfish, and potentially deadly behavior.

    We are nearing 800,000 deaths since this thing started. I don’t believe the time has yet come to be flippant about it.

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    Nathan

    Jonah seemed to push back more this time around, and it was great. I wasn't listening for Will to be "owned" or anything like that, but both he and Jonah are clearly capable of handling some real criticism, and it was most interesting when they were hard on each other's ideas. Great episode.

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  8. PKirch

    More episodes like this one, please. Listening to Jonah talk with someone he doesn't agree with on all things was great.

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    Ben Connelly

    Fantastic discussion! Will is my favorite liberal guest, haha! He’s totally right about fogged up glasses from masks too!

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  10. Maddmac

    If the country were subjected to Jonah + Will discussions on TV instead of Fox/CNN/MSNBC all day, we'd be in a much better place.

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